12:00 21.03.2023

There is no need to fight corruption. Conditions must be created to make its existence impossible - Danilov

20 min read
There is no need to fight corruption. Conditions must be created to make its existence impossible - Danilov

An exclusive interview of the Interfax-Ukraine News Agency with Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine (NSDC) Oleksiy Danilov

By Ina Kardash and Oleksandr Martynenko

 

What is your opinion about the threat of the war dragging on? They say Russia is ready to continue the war for years…

This scenario is the hardest one for us. That would be the most difficult situation for us, and, unfortunately, we are unable to ultimately influence it if the parties that have been supporting Ukraine during the war take a more cautious position.

It is very important for us to end the war as soon as possible. We are speaking not only about the end of our war. It is very important for us that Moldova put an end to its situation with the Transdniestria, which started on September 2, 1990. It is because if we have territories with Russian troops deployed next to our common border, it is just a question of time when they may start to destabilize something. In addition, there will be no investment and development.

Secondly, Georgia. It is very important for us that Georgia retake its territories. In addition, it is very important for us what would be going on in Belarus. We need Belarus to stop hosting the exercises of the Russian forces and providing its infrastructure for use by the Russian army.

We have analyzed all of the strategies adopted in the United States, in the UK, and in other institutions until 2040. And there was one completely unpleasant thing for us that we noticed.

The only thing I would like to emphasize is that these strategies had been approved before February 24, 2022. They referred us, Ukraine, to the so-called region, Eurasia. These are the remaining twelve countries in the post-Soviet territory – they defined us as Eurasia. We have nothing to do with Asia, we are Europe. It is extremely important to call everything by its right name, otherwise, when they call you let's say a 'catdog', you should keep in mind that you will be neither a cat nor a dog. You will be just a weird creature.

We have destroyed such a vision. We also broke the game for a lot of people on February 24, 2022, because Putin was not the only person interested in forcing Volodymyr Oleksandrovych [Zelenskyy] to flee the country.

Can you imagine at what level people reported that the situation here would be out of control? And now they must take responsibility for their own words. Although I had been telling everyone that they were making a mistake and that they simply did not understand what was going on. We keep making one big mistake since the Soviet times. It's that we think that people somewhere abroad are smarter than us. I can say that there are smart people here and there, and there are different people here and there. We keep thinking that if people (I remember this from the old days) are, for example, from the United States, they are a sort of top-grade people.

It is not a secret that the United States has been attracting smart and skillful people from all countries – and this is also true – with universities, education centers, and programs. And we can only welcome the fact that the United States attracts people of this category in such a way.

Have there been any changes in our partners recently?

How strong one has to be to understand that he made a mistake. Moreover, how strong one has to be to recognize that it was a mistake… So, I do not think that all necessary conclusions have been made…

We often hear lately about the war of attrition. Both Russia and Ukraine are becoming exhausted. Are we able to stand long if this is the case?

It is not only about exhaustion. The thing is that every country solves its own specific issues in the course of this war.

We realize that if our interests coincide with the interests of our partners in certain spheres, they will cooperate with us, and we will have common interests. And if our interests do not coincide, they will take their own way without asking for our opinion. That is what we are talking about. There is a threat if the situation in the world gets out of control, which is possible because we live in the post-COVID time. When COVID broke out, I said it was the beginning of the Big War. Defining it as World War III is wrong, but that was the beginning of the Big War. Whether we have overcome COVID or not, today we can see the global post-COVID consequences. They affected all countries.

Life is arranged differently than school. At first, it gives you a test, and only after that, you can learn one or another lesson based on your own results.

We are having an extremely difficult period right now, because in no case can we make any strategic mistakes. I had a conversation with the president this week, we made an analysis and came to the conclusion that after February 24 we did not make any major strategic mistakes. If there were any tactical things, they did not affect the global process. And we keep in mind that our task after the war will be much more complicated since the number of challenges, we are going to face will be much bigger than today.

When there is an enemy, everything is clear. But if there are no enemies outside, we can find them inside [of the country], and a lot…

During all of our recent history, starting from 1991, we never had a project that would involve all communities of the country. We need exactly such a national project that would involve, let's say, the vast majority of citizens, in order to generate their interest and make them understand what it is about, what kind of a country we are building… This is a complicated task…

Currently, at the Office [of the President of Ukraine], by order of the president, we are developing specific models of the post-war development of Ukraine, as we can see them. In addition, today we have a rather powerful civilian society, a variety of centers that also suggest, develop, and give their recommendations regarding their vision of our future.

Of course, we a grateful to all of these centers, however, we should keep in mind that the government should not lag behind in this issue.

Speaking about common things, we always had certain problems, and Russian made use of them. If there is a gap, they will put dynamite inside it and they will blow it up for sure. Language, economy, church – this is not the whole list.

We depend on the supplies of weapons by our partners. What has the state done to reduce this dependence?

I would like to clarify that the situation we had since the Soviet times, when there was the concept of "defense and industry complex"… You should keep in mind the fact that when you have an absolutely different economic development model and when you are in a transition period, thinking that you are capable of dealing 100% on your own with the problems we are facing at the frontline every day means deceiving yourself. It is physically impossible.

One more problem is the long-existing destructive work of Russian agents in our military industry the negative consequences of which we can partially see today. We have to admit this fact. There are certain production, scientific, and design processes that we launch, and they move and resume. However, I once again emphasize, this process is very complicated.

No one thought that the war would last for more than one year. No one prepared in full for such a war, including Russia. The world did not prepare because they had completely different forecasts. In general, taking into account military forecasts, they expected that the next wars would be wars in which aviation, missile forces, various air attack systems, loitering shells, UAVs, and other advanced equipment would prevail.

No one could even imagine that tanks, guns, and artillery duels would be used to hold such a frontline – these are thousands, tens of thousands of shells per day.

When did they start to give us first weapons? The Poles have us the first [weapons] in March 2022. They gave us mortars. I told the president at that time that it was extremely important for us to withstand exactly at the time, in the first weeks, and they will help us if we withstand now.

Everyone was watching. Well, yes, they were concerned again and again.

We can see a shortage of shells on our side, and, by the way, the enemy is experiencing it as well. Could this result in hostilities becoming less fierce?

It will depend on many factors. What kind of assistance will Russia receive from the countries which today Russia has a great desire to attract?

Do you mean China?

I do not think that this will happen, but if China openly supplies weapons to Russia, it will actually take part in the war on the side of the aggressor. At the same time, it should be taken into account that China has a whole complex of its own internal problems that it should solve. Population growth has stopped and economic growth has slowed down in China. That is, they will also face big challenges.

In your opinion, how different are the new people joining the Armed Forces today from those joining the army en masse a year ago when the invasion started? Are they more motivated, or are they less motivated?

Every case depends on the person and his or her internal state. [It depends on] what has happened to him or her over this year. It is very difficult to give a simple answer that would satisfy everyone. Someone experienced certain events, someone had his father killed, someone had his brother [killed], someone lost his wife, someone [lost] his kids.

Recently, I attended an awarding ceremony for our heroes on Volunteer Day. Volodymyr Oleksandrovych awarded one of them: well, I don't know, he is rather short and weighs maybe 45-50 kilograms. But he is a hero, you know? Some people say that "those who wanted [to fight] have already gone [to the war]". This is not quite so. Everyone has his life. Everyone has his own inner processes going on and they are not linked to some specific date.

Do we have enough soldiers to win? I am more than sure that we have enough. Today, our servicemen receive training. And this trained reserve helps us a lot and it will help us in the future.

We were talking about the army and people's attitude toward it, and their readiness to fight. We almost did not have any informational campaigns aimed at attracting people to the army. The first such campaign is the Offensive Guard. What is your assessment of its results?

On February 24, at 8 a.m., the Verkhovna Rada approved the decision of the Defense Council on the mobilization. It constantly continues. It is held in a calm and well-considered manner. A proposal appeared to create an Offensive Guard. That is to launch an additional motivation campaign. And I can say today that what was planned to be done over a specific period has been implemented by 80%.

Do you mean in general in the defense sector?

Yes. The training and combat shakedown is underway. It was an absolutely motivational campaign [the Offensive Guard], however, the selection was more serious. It is better to move forward than to stand still.

A western publication recently reported that the AFU has 100,000 in casualties…

I declare to you with full responsibility that we do not have 100,000 casualties among the military. It's impossible… Our servicemen and our president know the exact number. During the war, this is classified information, but 100,000 is completely untrue. The ratio of losses is currently 1 to 7, 1 to 8, in some cases 1 to 10 in favor of the AFU. The backbone of our army was prepared after the war of 2014, we knew how to fight, but there was no such thing in Russia. In many areas, their losses were simply insane.

Are the Supreme Commander-in-Chief's Staff and the NSDC the main instruments of the president? It seems that in recent months the Staff held meetings more often. Why?

Well, I cannot say that the meetings were more frequent in recent months, there was simply a situation when there were no public communications.

All meetings of the Staff are held behind closed doors. In fact, the president conveys them every day. In addition to the official meetings of the Staff, during which reports are heard and appropriate decisions and protocol assignments are made, there are separate councils and meetings with the president, with representatives of the Staff, which take place almost around the clock, including Saturdays and Sundays. Following every such meeting of the Staff, the president issues a decree of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, which is mandatory for everyone listed in this decree.

The NSDC and the Staff are two bodies headed by the president. As the secretary and coordinator of the Staff, I am responsible for the preparation and holding of all these meetings. I can say that in recent four months the top issue has been Bakhmut. The task of the Russian Federation is quite simple – to reach the borders of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and then start blackmailing us. It is very important for us to hold on, because there is also an emotional component: what they captured, how we will continue to act. However, we disrupted all of their plans. Our heroic men and women simply foiled their third plan of offensive. The Russian forces are unable to move forward, they just throw people there like in a cauldron. Sometimes I watch the footage of how many of them are lying there. We cannot show this to our population. But it's impressive when our guys work. Just well done.

Who is responsible for analytics in the presidential office? Are these NSDC agencies?

In my opinion, there is no place for monopoly anywhere, including in informing the head of state. The president receives information from various sources. He receives information from all agencies from which he considers it necessary to get this information, and there is no monopoly influence by the NSDC here.

There is a huge number of analytical agencies in our country, they are independent and autonomous, and they provide information to the NSDC as well. We are grateful to the people who help us. We use their practices.

In modern conditions, at least five opinions should be taken into account. Why did Putin face such a disaster? It is because the monopoly created by him leads to degradation. It is because there are no other points of view and no discussions. Everyone agrees. Nobody wants to disappoint the tzar. And it is very dangerous.

There are no such things in our country, are they?

We reflect those with whom we communicate. And if you communicate with as many people as possible, then you have a much broader outlook. You have a much broader vision of all processes.

Let's talk about sanctions. What spheres of economy are in your focus?

Russia's military and industrial complex is of great importance to us today. It is very important for us that these are not only sanctions from our side, but also that our partner countries support them.

Currently, we have faced the question of developing a control system. Modern technology progress has reached the point when the technologies that were applied in the military industry only some 20-15 years ago are used even in household appliances today.

We cannot help but ask you about the gambling business…

What is the problem? The problem is that when you start a gambling business, you should keep in mind that you must respect the state and pay taxes.

The gambling market we are talking about was estimated at around UAH 120-150 billion. When we saw how much they paid in taxes last year and what was actually going on there, it was a challenge for us. There was a warning from our side, and then another one, the second one, and the third one, I mean "guys, you must put things to order." I think now decisions will be made at the level of legislation in order to make this procedure… I do not like the word "transparent" because it was vilified at one time.

When someone says that corruption needs to be fought, this is a huge misconception. Because you can't fight it. It's impossible. You have to create such conditions that it is impossible. The more you fight, the more you strengthen it. Make such conditions when it will be impossible, then this issue will be removed from the agenda.

You mentioned that it is impossible to fight against corruption. I remember your other statement, I guess, recently you said that when we speak about anti-corruption in Ukraine, we should see first if there are interests of our state and of our opponent in some cases. How should we differentiate between the fight against corruption (which still should be conducted) and an informational campaign aimed at discrediting the state?

I want to emphasize, and this is very important, colleague. I emphasize once again that you must create such conditions under which it [corruption] is impossible. Such conditions exist, for example, in Denmark. I consider it a model for building such a society. The fairness of the system, to which we would very much like to move, is reflected there to a certain extent.

Another thing is that it will be very difficult for you to live after that. This should be understood and kept in mind as well. Why? Because each person must be responsible for himself. That's what it is like in Denmark – each person is responsible for himself. And we continue to live with such a "post-Soviet" syndrome that the state must take care of us, and we must constantly ask it.

As for the use of money, it is no secret that the Russian Federation once corrupted a huge number of political elites in Europe, including political parties. And look what is happening in sports now, for example? The Russian Federation is currently practicing sports blackmail. In fact, they want to buy indulgence for money. When they say that sport is outside of politics, there are no questions.

But you compete under the flag of a terrorist country. Can you imagine? Al-Qaeda steps up and says that they will compete now. And Russia is nothing but Al-Qaeda.

All double standards will sooner or later result into a dangerous situation. We thought that Russians played chess all their life, but it turns out that they played checkers. The British play chess. And the Chinese play Go. And that is why there may be a moment when China wants to take part of the territory of the Russian Federation, a large territory of which, by the way, historically belonged to China.

Do you think China has entered the game?

Yes. For the first time in modern history. From 1980s until 2020s, the Chinese were just silently busy with their own country, while today they have shown an active public position.

What would you tell the Republicans in the United States who say that the war in Ukraine is not their war?

Stop, stop, stop. First of all, I want us to translate very carefully and literally everything that was said by the person who is highly likely to run or at least participate in the primaries [Ronald DeSantis].

Secondly, you should mind that a political campaign is underway. Many people said one thing before elections and then acted differently. We both remember when Trump was elected, they partied and drank champagne for three days in Moscow. And then the person takes the office and he already has a different vision and understanding. Remember that the candidate and the president are two different persons.

Do you ask Moldova for assistance in the hybrid fight against Russia?

Moldova recently developed a document in which they propose to extend the steps to the return of the PMR [Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic] for seven years. This should be solved at a time, but when they turn the situation into a political process, because there are voters there, it is a huge mistake.

Yes, some people think that it will be difficult for us, for example, to retake Donetsk and Luhansk regions. I can guarantee that there will be no difficulties with the return. Those people who are the key figures, the main traitors and collaborators there, they all will go to Russia. The rest of the people who stay there need two things. They should be given peace and jobs.

What about our old acquaintances? Is Medvedchuk already a waste card?

This is Putin's age-old trauma. This is an absolutely unbelievable story. His time expired on February 24. And all that is left from the Opposition Platform-For Life is no longer a working structure.

Yanukovych. What about him? Is he alive?

Viktor Fedorovych made a lot of mistakes at one time. But there was a tragic and fatal one. And I mean not even the situation with the Maidan on November 30 when they started to beat the children. The situation was connected with his trip to China. Yanukovych completely lost control over the situation at that moment.

And what about his team – Arbuzov, Kliuyev?

Their game is over. They will never appear on the board.

When do you think, we are going to have parliamentary and presidential elections?

This is a very uneasy question. Moreover, I want to say that the elections we are going to have must be fair. And if some hotheads think they can manipulate our society and will push it to some illegal things, this may end in a very dangerous way. You have to be very cautious here. Fairness, fairness, and once again fairness.

One should not manipulate the facts. Moreover, I think the president of our country, having such positions, understands very well that he is the leader of the nation. And even if there are elections soon, I cannot see any competitor to the president of our country. And when some people want to artificially play some combinations with the military through the media, this construction does not work.

Do you know about the idea to ban servicemen from running for elections? What do you think about it?

Well, look, what the Constitution says. We are all equal. You should not do such things, because you do not understand how you can deprive a citizen of the right to run for elections and be elected. Where is it written? Those who have problems with historical memory should know what a crowd is. The crowd lives according to completely different laws than people do.

Here is a simple example about the Maidan. Do you remember how long they had been demonstrating their whims, walking around, holding talks, making visits... And then Vova Parasiuk came out and slagged off all of them. That was the culmination.

By the way, their own 'Parasiuks' are already growing up in Russia...

 

 

 

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